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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s the next disruptive technology in CAE?</title>
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	<description>Getting ahead with CAE, direct modeling, and creative engineering</description>
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		<title>By: Mook</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5394</link>
		<dc:creator>Mook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 06:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5394</guid>
		<description>I like your &quot;CAD-ish&quot; adjective. That adjective applies to several large companies that come to mind - Dassault, Autodesk and Bentley. These companies have a long history with and expertise in CAD design, but have decided later on to purchase analysis products as a complimentary add-on to their CAD products. These type of companies would likely squelch any such development coming from their CAE products because it would cannabilize their larger CAD user base in a big way... and besides, they think CAD-centrically. It&#039;s what they know. Many CAE products already generate certain geometry very efficiently without the help of a CAD system, but a CAD system doesn&#039;t know how to do analysis.. hence the often-problematic linking of CAD with CAE. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Pretty much anytime you transfer models between CAD and CAE programs, applications which were developed on separate platforms with different databases aimed at different users, you&#039;re going to experience some problems.. especially given the back-and-forth nature of many design processes. This can vary significantly by industry and depending on what the design objectives are. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For example, it may make sense to analyze a detailed part with bolt assembly as a simplified rigid object in some design situations, but in others not. In some cases it may make sense to analyze an entire interconnected system to get a sense as to what&#039;s going on, but in other design situations you may need only to analyze a single part or portion of the system, or check local stresses in one area of a part or piece of equipment. The experienced engineers doing the analysis are going to understand these issues much better than a CAD designer who doesn&#039;t know analysis. And again keeping in mind, analysis is often integral to the design. If CAE developers have real-world engineering design experience just as CAD developers have real-world design CAD experience, theoretically this would result in advantages for the CAE companies since they would know how to better manage and classify objects for analysis.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Contrary to what was suggested on this thread, I don&#039;t believe that you can mesh your way into better designs or useability for many/most situations, and even if you could, raw output from finite elements is often not a feasible approach for many types of designs.. Furthermore, there are design code requirements associated with many CAE analytical designs (ASME, AISC, AASHTO, etc) which dictate how stresses are to be calculated, and failure modes vary, depending on what&#039;s being designed. Fatigue may dominate some designs, buckling may dominate others, and deflection limits may govern in other designs. It depends. There are a lot of these types of issues to consider, and the issues vary significantly between industries that utilize both CAD and CAE. They also vary significantly between engineering disciplines within the same industry - structural and mechanical engineering depts. may both utilize CAE and CAD in different ways working on their own segments of a larger design. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If my prediction comes true regarding CAE companies eventually moving into CAD turf, it would likely occur on an industry-by-industry basis addressing industry specific design issues.. and if it happens, the large CAD companies won&#039;t see it coming</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your &#8220;CAD-ish&#8221; adjective. That adjective applies to several large companies that come to mind &#8211; Dassault, Autodesk and Bentley. These companies have a long history with and expertise in CAD design, but have decided later on to purchase analysis products as a complimentary add-on to their CAD products. These type of companies would likely squelch any such development coming from their CAE products because it would cannabilize their larger CAD user base in a big way&#8230; and besides, they think CAD-centrically. It&#39;s what they know. Many CAE products already generate certain geometry very efficiently without the help of a CAD system, but a CAD system doesn&#39;t know how to do analysis.. hence the often-problematic linking of CAD with CAE. </p>
<p>Pretty much anytime you transfer models between CAD and CAE programs, applications which were developed on separate platforms with different databases aimed at different users, you&#39;re going to experience some problems.. especially given the back-and-forth nature of many design processes. This can vary significantly by industry and depending on what the design objectives are. </p>
<p>For example, it may make sense to analyze a detailed part with bolt assembly as a simplified rigid object in some design situations, but in others not. In some cases it may make sense to analyze an entire interconnected system to get a sense as to what&#39;s going on, but in other design situations you may need only to analyze a single part or portion of the system, or check local stresses in one area of a part or piece of equipment. The experienced engineers doing the analysis are going to understand these issues much better than a CAD designer who doesn&#39;t know analysis. And again keeping in mind, analysis is often integral to the design. If CAE developers have real-world engineering design experience just as CAD developers have real-world design CAD experience, theoretically this would result in advantages for the CAE companies since they would know how to better manage and classify objects for analysis.</p>
<p>Contrary to what was suggested on this thread, I don&#39;t believe that you can mesh your way into better designs or useability for many/most situations, and even if you could, raw output from finite elements is often not a feasible approach for many types of designs.. Furthermore, there are design code requirements associated with many CAE analytical designs (ASME, AISC, AASHTO, etc) which dictate how stresses are to be calculated, and failure modes vary, depending on what&#39;s being designed. Fatigue may dominate some designs, buckling may dominate others, and deflection limits may govern in other designs. It depends. There are a lot of these types of issues to consider, and the issues vary significantly between industries that utilize both CAD and CAE. They also vary significantly between engineering disciplines within the same industry &#8211; structural and mechanical engineering depts. may both utilize CAE and CAD in different ways working on their own segments of a larger design. </p>
<p>If my prediction comes true regarding CAE companies eventually moving into CAD turf, it would likely occur on an industry-by-industry basis addressing industry specific design issues.. and if it happens, the large CAD companies won&#39;t see it coming</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waters</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5393</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 03:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5393</guid>
		<description>Interesting. If I&#039;m reading you correctly, sounds like you are saying an integrated environment is the goal, but true CAE is not clearly promoted as pre-design activity by the CAD-ish companies attempting to offer a suite of CAE+CAD+CAM tools. So, maybe down the road, that revolution will come from the CAE companies? Interesting... and plausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. If I&#39;m reading you correctly, sounds like you are saying an integrated environment is the goal, but true CAE is not clearly promoted as pre-design activity by the CAD-ish companies attempting to offer a suite of CAE+CAD+CAM tools. So, maybe down the road, that revolution will come from the CAE companies? Interesting&#8230; and plausible.</p>
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		<title>By: Mook</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5392</link>
		<dc:creator>Mook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 02:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5392</guid>
		<description>Hi Jeff, &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m late to comment, but as a twist to the idea of having CAE more accessible to designers, perhaps the disruptive technology of the future will involve CAE products adding database and graphics capabilities that enable a unified platform for both CAD and analysis without having to transfer models between different applications which have their own separate databases. In some industries, preliminary designs are far off the mark without analysis.. analysis is often integral to the design, not some &quot;after the fact&quot; verification of the design. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Analysis packages have come a long way in terms of graphics and modeling user interface.. DirectX offers built-in meshing and advanced surfacing which comes for &quot;free&quot; to users, which could potentially include CAE software vendors. There is of course, more to it than simply adding graphics - generation of dimensioned drawings, BOM&#039;s, clash detection and other capabilities would be needed.. But I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if CAE vendors at some point go after CAD software &quot;turf&quot; in some industries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jeff, </p>
<p>I&#39;m late to comment, but as a twist to the idea of having CAE more accessible to designers, perhaps the disruptive technology of the future will involve CAE products adding database and graphics capabilities that enable a unified platform for both CAD and analysis without having to transfer models between different applications which have their own separate databases. In some industries, preliminary designs are far off the mark without analysis.. analysis is often integral to the design, not some &#8220;after the fact&#8221; verification of the design. </p>
<p>Analysis packages have come a long way in terms of graphics and modeling user interface.. DirectX offers built-in meshing and advanced surfacing which comes for &#8220;free&#8221; to users, which could potentially include CAE software vendors. There is of course, more to it than simply adding graphics &#8211; generation of dimensioned drawings, BOM&#39;s, clash detection and other capabilities would be needed.. But I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if CAE vendors at some point go after CAD software &#8220;turf&#8221; in some industries.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waters</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5380</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5380</guid>
		<description>@kimberly: great points! You reminded me that I need to go back and read my own stuff. I think what you are describing fits in well with these articles:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-in-every-home/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization-engineering-and-conspiracy-theories/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kimberly: great points! You reminded me that I need to go back and read my own stuff. I think what you are describing fits in well with these articles:</p>
<p><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-in-every-home/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-.." rel="nofollow">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-..</a>.</p>
<p><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization-engineering-and-conspiracy-theories/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization.." rel="nofollow">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization..</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: kimberlypeacock</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5379</link>
		<dc:creator>kimberlypeacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5379</guid>
		<description>I see the future being dominated by distributed manufacturing except for large parts. I think that it will follow the PC revolution of modularity, in which people become modules as well.  Look at the transition the printing, and printing-prepress industry has gone through. The future is the individual or small shop.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Economically we migrate from the centralized big manufacturer to distributed manufacturing.  From hand layouts and big printing presses, to computer layout, and print on demand. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If I were focused on this market, I would have a low cost subscription service, with an integrated Cad/CAE product with a tie in to the service houses for custom parts, and I would do something like traceparts where every order I recieved a small commision for every ordered routed through my software.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would make the system as intuitive to use as spaceclaim, but would add an expert system for CAE with a visual programming paradym, where you can update material properties like you do with materials web, and then connect the dots and be guided by the expert system. For advanced application the expert system would recommend farming it out to expert consultants at a reasonable price for analysis.&lt;br&gt;Further I would create a social network which tied in common project management schedules and costs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Such aproach would be making an argument to provide everyone who has ever longed for a custom product to try their hand at it. be it hobbyist or small business.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think we will get to that point sooner than some care to think. You will have a couple of big winners and the rest of the market will be flushed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see the future being dominated by distributed manufacturing except for large parts. I think that it will follow the PC revolution of modularity, in which people become modules as well.  Look at the transition the printing, and printing-prepress industry has gone through. The future is the individual or small shop.</p>
<p>Economically we migrate from the centralized big manufacturer to distributed manufacturing.  From hand layouts and big printing presses, to computer layout, and print on demand. </p>
<p>If I were focused on this market, I would have a low cost subscription service, with an integrated Cad/CAE product with a tie in to the service houses for custom parts, and I would do something like traceparts where every order I recieved a small commision for every ordered routed through my software.</p>
<p>I would make the system as intuitive to use as spaceclaim, but would add an expert system for CAE with a visual programming paradym, where you can update material properties like you do with materials web, and then connect the dots and be guided by the expert system. For advanced application the expert system would recommend farming it out to expert consultants at a reasonable price for analysis.<br />Further I would create a social network which tied in common project management schedules and costs.</p>
<p>Such aproach would be making an argument to provide everyone who has ever longed for a custom product to try their hand at it. be it hobbyist or small business.</p>
<p>I think we will get to that point sooner than some care to think. You will have a couple of big winners and the rest of the market will be flushed out.</p>
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		<title>By: kimberlypeacock</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5378</link>
		<dc:creator>kimberlypeacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5378</guid>
		<description>The ACO in conjunction with these floating point numbers could provide a 1,000X performance boost, but the pwroblem is storing the state value and updating, if it has to flow across the bus then you can&#039;t get the performance, if you could then you can. The other issue is that it is not an exact solver, but a dynamic aproximate one. Like fuzzy logic in control systems, it will take awhile before people except it in mission critcal apps. However for use for what if engineering scenarios it could be ideal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ACO in conjunction with these floating point numbers could provide a 1,000X performance boost, but the pwroblem is storing the state value and updating, if it has to flow across the bus then you can&#39;t get the performance, if you could then you can. The other issue is that it is not an exact solver, but a dynamic aproximate one. Like fuzzy logic in control systems, it will take awhile before people except it in mission critcal apps. However for use for what if engineering scenarios it could be ideal.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waters</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5377</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5377</guid>
		<description>@Kimberly: Agreed, the video co-processors look like an interesting trend. I think marginal performance increases on solve time (like 50-100% faster) can&#039;t be classified as disruptive. But when you do something revolutionary and leap to 100x faster and do it on a relatively inexpensive machine... that&#039;s a big deal. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Price can certainly be disruptive, but I think it follows that same thinking. The only truly disruptive price for a $5-20k software package (in my opinion) is &quot;Free.&quot; (ie, advertising supported or freemium model). But, that&#039;s looking at it from the perspective of mid-large size businesses, not smaller shops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kimberly: Agreed, the video co-processors look like an interesting trend. I think marginal performance increases on solve time (like 50-100% faster) can&#39;t be classified as disruptive. But when you do something revolutionary and leap to 100x faster and do it on a relatively inexpensive machine&#8230; that&#39;s a big deal. </p>
<p>Price can certainly be disruptive, but I think it follows that same thinking. The only truly disruptive price for a $5-20k software package (in my opinion) is &#8220;Free.&#8221; (ie, advertising supported or freemium model). But, that&#39;s looking at it from the perspective of mid-large size businesses, not smaller shops.</p>
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		<title>By: kimberlypeacock</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5376</link>
		<dc:creator>kimberlypeacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5376</guid>
		<description>Can Pricing be disruptive?&lt;br&gt;I think it can. The rapid protyping tools are here, and the service houses are increasing in capability, and numbers.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The most disruptive technology may be what we already have, just priced such that every individual, an or small business can afford to use. The tools we have combined with the rapid manufacture technology, can enable a transition from a centralized manufacturing base to a distributed one.&lt;br&gt;Cost is a primary barrier currently, but as prices decrease it will become a mass market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can Pricing be disruptive?<br />I think it can. The rapid protyping tools are here, and the service houses are increasing in capability, and numbers.</p>
<p>The most disruptive technology may be what we already have, just priced such that every individual, an or small business can afford to use. The tools we have combined with the rapid manufacture technology, can enable a transition from a centralized manufacturing base to a distributed one.<br />Cost is a primary barrier currently, but as prices decrease it will become a mass market.</p>
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		<title>By: kimberlypeacock</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5375</link>
		<dc:creator>kimberlypeacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5375</guid>
		<description>I think that with the modern co-processor, (ie: Nvidea and Matric Porcessors such as in Playstation3) that we can move to adaptive dynamic algorythms such as ACO (Ant Colony Optimization) For real time fluid flow, thermal, and stress analysis. ACO does not solve TSP exactly but it can be 99$ accurate as long as we clear the paths. Combine this is a 3d mesh that is to whatever degree of resolution you need, by using an expert system help set up the parameters, and although not an exact solver, would provide immediate feedback to the design.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The troublesome part in these modern co-prossirs is the bandwidth/memory constraint.  If we were to add a solid state disk to the card to store the memory space without having to travel the system bus, we would be well on our way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that with the modern co-processor, (ie: Nvidea and Matric Porcessors such as in Playstation3) that we can move to adaptive dynamic algorythms such as ACO (Ant Colony Optimization) For real time fluid flow, thermal, and stress analysis. ACO does not solve TSP exactly but it can be 99$ accurate as long as we clear the paths. Combine this is a 3d mesh that is to whatever degree of resolution you need, by using an expert system help set up the parameters, and although not an exact solver, would provide immediate feedback to the design.</p>
<p>The troublesome part in these modern co-prossirs is the bandwidth/memory constraint.  If we were to add a solid state disk to the card to store the memory space without having to travel the system bus, we would be well on our way.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waters</title>
		<link>http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/comment-page-1/#comment-5374</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/11/16/disruptive-innovation-fea-cfd-cae/#comment-5374</guid>
		<description>@kimberly: great points! You reminded me that I need to go back and read my own stuff. I think what you are describing fits in well with these articles:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-in-every-home/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization-engineering-and-conspiracy-theories/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kimberly: great points! You reminded me that I need to go back and read my own stuff. I think what you are describing fits in well with these articles:</p>
<p><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-in-every-home/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-.." rel="nofollow">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/09/18/a-3d-printer-..</a>.</p>
<p><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization-engineering-and-conspiracy-theories/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization.." rel="nofollow">http://lifeupfront.com/2009/01/16/globalization..</a>.</p>
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