Comments on: A tale of two Aberdeen reports http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=aberdeen-conceptual-modeling Getting ahead with CAE, direct modeling, and creative engineering Sun, 18 Jul 2010 02:39:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Stan Przybylinski http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5310 Stan Przybylinski Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:50:56 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5310 It is important to note that Aberdeen's "fact-based research" sponsors help form the surveys. Since most of the questions are closed ended, respondents HAVE to choose something for each question. The other issue is that the respondents are not randomly chosen. Open surveys are promoted telling people the nature of the survey, and the questions of interest. As known in survey research design, this pro-innovation bias can skew the results. In addition, anyone can answer and Aberdeen MAY find that someone should not be in the pool and remove their results vs. pre-screening OR NOT INVITING people who have no business responding to the survey. Stan It is important to note that Aberdeen’s “fact-based research” sponsors help form the surveys. Since most of the questions are closed ended, respondents HAVE to choose something for each question.

The other issue is that the respondents are not randomly chosen. Open surveys are promoted telling people the nature of the survey, and the questions of interest. As known in survey research design, this pro-innovation bias can skew the results. In addition, anyone can answer and Aberdeen MAY find that someone should not be in the pool and remove their results vs. pre-screening OR NOT INVITING people who have no business responding to the survey.

Stan

]]> By: Nolton Johnson http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5303 Nolton Johnson Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:57:25 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5303 Mike, Does "ID users" mean Industrial Designers? I have a respect for that talent because I once thought I could do both conceptual machine design and the finished commercial package. My boss at that time (1969), went outside and had an ID guy do it and I was very impressed with the end result. The product was a success and it looked better than mine. So I did the concept and mechanism execution and he put a nice exterior on it. I watched some videos of sketching in Alias Design and that looks real interesting. I still sketch on paper. Maybe I should drop out of this discussion because my interest is simply thinking of a solution to a problem that involves nuts, bolts & metal then creating the document to build it from with a solid model and drawings on the Mac platform. When I found this discussion I felt like Jeff was letting people wimp out when he said "It is impractical to expect the people doing that kind of work to become skilled at a CAD tool meant for full-blown, detailed design and drafting." I guess I don't know how I could put a person in charge of creating a product if they don't know the mechanics and use the CAD tools. Maybe I have been away from the large enterprise too long to remember spreading the chores around to a large group of people with diverse talents and abilities. Auto body designers probably need no mechanical experience. Ian's ship building business creates a real workload for all areas of design and computing. That must be hard to manage. Nolton Mike,

Does “ID users” mean Industrial Designers? I have a respect for that talent because I once thought I could do both conceptual machine design and the finished commercial package. My boss at that time (1969), went outside and had an ID guy do it and I was very impressed with the end result. The product was a success and it looked better than mine. So I did the concept and mechanism execution and he put a nice exterior on it.

I watched some videos of sketching in Alias Design and that looks real interesting. I still sketch on paper.

Maybe I should drop out of this discussion because my interest is simply thinking of a solution to a problem that involves nuts, bolts & metal then creating the document to build it from with a solid model and drawings on the Mac platform.

When I found this discussion I felt like Jeff was letting people wimp out when he said “It is impractical to expect the people doing that kind of work to become skilled at a CAD tool meant for full-blown, detailed design and drafting.”

I guess I don’t know how I could put a person in charge of creating a product if they don’t know the mechanics and use the CAD tools. Maybe I have been away from the large enterprise too long to remember spreading the chores around to a large group of people with diverse talents and abilities. Auto body designers probably need no mechanical experience.

Ian’s ship building business creates a real workload for all areas of design and computing. That must be hard to manage.

Nolton

]]> By: strobe http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5301 strobe Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:38:21 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5301 I have worked in shipbuilding for 40 years or so, starting with full scale lofting then developing computer approaches. I suspect that these reports read more logically when considering complex products like these. In our case there is the paper based concept development of the ship supported by analysis packages. The output of this phase may or may not be CAD based. When CAD it is often 2D. When the decision is made to build then the design of the component parts are developed using CAD. This is often in 3D with output to workshops in 2D. These 3D parts are then used within a 3D computer Mock Up. The file size and structure of this Mock up is complex. In principle, these component CAD parts could be reused elsewhere. However, there is no direct (computer)link to the original ship concept model (and the file size tends to preclude the showing of the whole ship) Thus the ship concept configuration is developed in one system whilst its build configuration is defined in another. I tend to think of the ship being designed and the build being specified. I believe that the next development is to 'structure' and manage the concept development in order to support the build phase I don't know if I am coming across right. I think everyone is correct but looking at the issue from individual directions. ian I have worked in shipbuilding for 40 years or so, starting with full scale lofting then developing computer approaches.
I suspect that these reports read more logically when considering complex products like these.

In our case there is the paper based concept development of the ship supported by analysis packages. The output of this phase may or may not be CAD based. When CAD it is often 2D.

When the decision is made to build then the design of the component parts are developed using CAD. This is often in 3D with output to workshops in 2D.

These 3D parts are then used within a 3D computer Mock Up. The file size and structure of this Mock up is complex. In principle, these component CAD parts could be reused elsewhere.
However, there is no direct (computer)link to the original ship concept model (and the file size tends to preclude the showing of the whole ship)

Thus the ship concept configuration is developed in one system whilst its build configuration is defined in another.

I tend to think of the ship being designed and the build being specified. I believe that the next development is to ‘structure’ and manage the concept development in order to support the build phase

I don’t know if I am coming across right. I think everyone is correct but looking at the issue from individual directions.
ian

]]> By: Jeff Waters http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5300 Jeff Waters Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:55:28 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5300 Thanks Mike. Exactly. Asking conceptual people to manage a complex history tree (ie, traditional CAD) is often crazy. One point: I think "sketching" to you means something very different than "sketching" to a CAD person. Just clarifying terminology for everyone. ID sketching is more like sketching in the sense of an artist with a pencil. Sketching in CAD is drawing a profile in 2D. Thanks Mike. Exactly. Asking conceptual people to manage a complex history tree (ie, traditional CAD) is often crazy. One point: I think “sketching” to you means something very different than “sketching” to a CAD person. Just clarifying terminology for everyone. ID sketching is more like sketching in the sense of an artist with a pencil. Sketching in CAD is drawing a profile in 2D.

]]> By: Mike Norgrave http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5299 Mike Norgrave Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:47:07 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5299 I have worked in an ID department for 15 years. To expect ID users to effectivly use Parametric applications Like Proe, Solidworks, Inventor is crazy. These tools do not provide the freedom a designer needs to rapidly make models and try different forms. Most of our concepts start digitally using digital sketching applications. We use Alias Design to start the 2d sketch using digital pencils, markers, etc. We can then reuse those sketches and 2d curves to start building a 3d model for Rapid prototyping. The only application that allows us to explore 2d ideas and create 3d models without remodeling is Alias Design. We had Rhino, but it does not have a sketching application built in like Alias. We have Proe here, and we tried it in the ID group. It is just to restrictive and is not set up for an ID workflow. Solidworks is a little easier, but still has the underlying problems of features and relations that restrict freeform and unrestricted modeling. You should spend some time with these companies and have them present their vision for ID. You will quickly see that only Autodesk provides tools for the whole ID workflow, where the others focus on just 3d modeling. We probably create 100's of 2d digital sketches before we even consider building a 3d model. Mike I have worked in an ID department for 15 years.
To expect ID users to effectivly use Parametric applications Like Proe, Solidworks, Inventor is crazy.
These tools do not provide the freedom a designer needs to rapidly make models and try different forms.
Most of our concepts start digitally using digital sketching applications.
We use Alias Design to start the 2d sketch using digital pencils, markers, etc. We can then reuse those sketches and 2d curves to start building a 3d model for Rapid prototyping.
The only application that allows us to explore 2d ideas and create 3d models without remodeling is Alias Design.
We had Rhino, but it does not have a sketching application built in like Alias.
We have Proe here, and we tried it in the ID group. It is just to restrictive and is not set up for an ID workflow. Solidworks is a little easier, but still has the underlying problems of features and relations that restrict freeform and unrestricted modeling. You should spend some time with these companies and have them present their vision for ID. You will quickly see that only Autodesk provides tools for the whole ID workflow, where the others focus on just 3d modeling. We probably create 100′s of 2d digital sketches before we even consider building a 3d model.

Mike

]]> By: Nolton Johnson http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5295 Nolton Johnson Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:58:36 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5295 One more thing Jeff, I said CAD and Mac loudly in 1989 after running a great Apple platform with powerful CAD software since 1983. Great 2D color CAD on a Mac made me able to rock & roll while my associates were fighting AutoCrud on their ugly PC's. I really had to bite the bullet to switch to the PC for SolidWorks but it was the right software for me at the time. My PC was relatively reliable in 2001 when the OS was Windoze 2000. Nolton One more thing Jeff,

I said CAD and Mac loudly in 1989 after running a great Apple platform with powerful CAD software since 1983. Great 2D color CAD on a Mac made me able to rock & roll while my associates were fighting AutoCrud on their ugly PC’s.

I really had to bite the bullet to switch to the PC for SolidWorks but it was the right software for me at the time. My PC was relatively reliable in 2001 when the OS was Windoze 2000.

Nolton

]]> By: Nolton Johnson http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5294 Nolton Johnson Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:41:48 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5294 Jeff, I always try to stay "ahead of the curve" but more importantly try to stay productive. If you don't have the experience of doing projects on the Mac, you cannot appreaciate how windoze spoils your productivity. I just stepped away from my windoze-bootcamp-solidworks job and came back to the blue DOS "Windows is checking file system on C: bla, bla, bla." That kind of stupid stuff happens all the time on windoze. When I can go all the way to NX in the Mac Unix environment and stop using programs that only run in windoze, I will get more done with less aggravation. A half hour went down the time toilet! My MacBook Pro has a solid state drive, no spinning disks for windoze to check so why do you think it does this kind of stuff! The government must be involved trying everything they can to ruin our productivity. If SpaceClaim can do what so many other companies like VectorWorks and SolidThinking have done you will have a boatload of happy (and more productive) users (customers) because they can work on Macs or (ugh) PC's! Nolton Johnson The impatient Idea Guy I won't put up with sub standard OS's! Jeff, I always try to stay “ahead of the curve” but more importantly try to stay productive. If you don’t have the experience of doing projects on the Mac, you cannot appreaciate how windoze spoils your productivity. I just stepped away from my windoze-bootcamp-solidworks job and came back to the blue DOS “Windows is checking file system on C: bla, bla, bla.” That kind of stupid stuff happens all the time on windoze. When I can go all the way to NX in the Mac Unix environment and stop using programs that only run in windoze, I will get more done with less aggravation.

A half hour went down the time toilet! My MacBook Pro has a solid state drive, no spinning disks for windoze to check so why do you think it does this kind of stuff! The government must be involved trying everything they can to ruin our productivity.

If SpaceClaim can do what so many other companies like VectorWorks and SolidThinking have done you will have a boatload of happy (and more productive) users (customers) because they can work on Macs or (ugh) PC’s!

Nolton Johnson
The impatient Idea Guy

I won’t put up with sub standard OS’s!

]]> By: Jeff Waters http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5293 Jeff Waters Sat, 17 Oct 2009 10:56:34 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5293 Thanks Nolton. Agreed, corrective point #2 should probably read "It is OFTEN impractical to expect..." I hadn't heard of bonsai3D, but that certainly looks like the kind of tool I propose for super-early conceptual design. SketchUp is for sure (though, it isn't precise geometry, so not as useful for passing to downstream purposes like CAE). Of course, I work for SpaceClaim and see that as a perfect fit for creative 3D concepting in an engineering context. We don't officially support Mac, but SpaceClaim does run quite well there. It's not "native" however. Used to be nobody every said CAD in the same breath as Mac, but I am hearing it more now. Sounds like you are ahead of the curve! Thanks Nolton. Agreed, corrective point #2 should probably read “It is OFTEN impractical to expect…”

I hadn’t heard of bonsai3D, but that certainly looks like the kind of tool I propose for super-early conceptual design. SketchUp is for sure (though, it isn’t precise geometry, so not as useful for passing to downstream purposes like CAE).

Of course, I work for SpaceClaim and see that as a perfect fit for creative 3D concepting in an engineering context.

We don’t officially support Mac, but SpaceClaim does run quite well there. It’s not “native” however. Used to be nobody every said CAD in the same breath as Mac, but I am hearing it more now. Sounds like you are ahead of the curve!

]]> By: Nolton Johnson http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5292 Nolton Johnson Sat, 17 Oct 2009 04:31:26 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-5292 +Hi Jeff, I am an "Idea Guy" and 48 years ago I started inventing, designing and drafting for pay. I adopted CAD as soon as it was available to regular people. My issue with your CORRECTIVE POINT 2 is that a creative designer or engineer absolutely should be proficient with a tool like SolidWorks. That is how he can get what he really visualizes to manufacturing. He can have others put in the hours to complete documentation but he really should understand the process and be able to do any part of it himself. I am all about using the time needed to do design with CAD software, but the PC, SolidWorks and Windoze is just killing me! So much time is wasted keeping all of that up and running that after 8 years I have returned to an Apple computer where I started CAD in 1983. Of course I can't just drop the PC & SW so it is a gradual transition. I waited until there was a "real" 3D solid modeling and drafting MCAD program that runs native on the Mac and equals or betters the general PC CAD +programs in common use. That one is Siemens NX. I now have it on the Mac and must learn to use it. I'll tell you later if it is more user friendly and stops my work less. I know the OSX operating system is more stable and I have high hopes. NX has history and/or direct modeling so it will be interesting. Other software tools a creative guy (or gal) can use for quick idea development are SketchUp or bonsai3D. Acrobat is great for adding notes fast to photos or CAD models and drawings that have been saved as .PDF. You can communicate to anyone with .PDF and it makes a drawing backup that can't change when something happens to the solid model. Nolton Johnson Idea Guy Bend, Oregon +Hi Jeff, I am an “Idea Guy” and 48 years ago I started inventing, designing and drafting for pay. I adopted CAD as soon as it was available to regular people.

My issue with your CORRECTIVE POINT 2 is that a creative designer or engineer absolutely should be proficient with a tool like SolidWorks. That is how he can get what he really visualizes to manufacturing. He can have others put in the hours to complete documentation but he really should understand the process and be able to do any part of it himself.

I am all about using the time needed to do design with CAD software, but the PC, SolidWorks and Windoze is just killing me! So much time is wasted keeping all of that up and running that after 8 years I have returned to an Apple computer where I started CAD in 1983.

Of course I can’t just drop the PC & SW so it is a gradual transition. I waited until there was a “real” 3D solid modeling and drafting MCAD program that runs native on the Mac and equals or betters the general PC CAD +programs in common use. That one is Siemens NX. I now have it on the Mac and must learn to use it. I’ll tell you later if it is more user friendly and stops my work less. I know the OSX operating system is more stable and I have high hopes. NX has history and/or direct modeling so it will be interesting.

Other software tools a creative guy (or gal) can use for quick idea development are SketchUp or bonsai3D. Acrobat is great for adding notes fast to photos or CAD models and drawings that have been saved as .PDF. You can communicate to anyone with .PDF and it makes a drawing backup that can’t change when something happens to the solid model.

Nolton Johnson
Idea Guy
Bend, Oregon

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