Comments on: A tale of two Aberdeen reports http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/ Making better decisions and more profit with Computer Aided Engineering Thu, 17 May 2012 10:55:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Stan Przybylinski http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-284 Stan Przybylinski Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:50:56 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-284 It is important to note that Aberdeen's "fact-based research" sponsors help form the surveys. Since most of the questions are closed ended, respondents HAVE to choose something for each question. The other issue is that the respondents are not randomly chosen. Open surveys are promoted telling people the nature of the survey, and the questions of interest. As known in survey research design, this pro-innovation bias can skew the results. In addition, anyone can answer and Aberdeen MAY find that someone should not be in the pool and remove their results vs. pre-screening OR NOT INVITING people who have no business responding to the survey. Stan It is important to note that Aberdeen’s “fact-based research” sponsors help form the surveys. Since most of the questions are closed ended, respondents HAVE to choose something for each question.

The other issue is that the respondents are not randomly chosen. Open surveys are promoted telling people the nature of the survey, and the questions of interest. As known in survey research design, this pro-innovation bias can skew the results. In addition, anyone can answer and Aberdeen MAY find that someone should not be in the pool and remove their results vs. pre-screening OR NOT INVITING people who have no business responding to the survey.

Stan

]]> By: Stan Przybylinski http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-293 Stan Przybylinski Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:50:00 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-293 It is important to note that Aberdeen's "fact-based research" sponsors help form the surveys. Since most of the questions are closed ended, respondents HAVE to choose something for each question. The other issue is that the respondents are not randomly chosen. Open surveys are promoted telling people the nature of the survey, and the questions of interest. As known in survey research design, this pro-innovation bias can skew the results. In addition, anyone can answer and Aberdeen MAY find that someone should not be in the pool and remove their results vs. pre-screening OR NOT INVITING people who have no business responding to the survey. Stan It is important to note that Aberdeen’s “fact-based research” sponsors help form the surveys. Since most of the questions are closed ended, respondents HAVE to choose something for each question.

The other issue is that the respondents are not randomly chosen. Open surveys are promoted telling people the nature of the survey, and the questions of interest. As known in survey research design, this pro-innovation bias can skew the results. In addition, anyone can answer and Aberdeen MAY find that someone should not be in the pool and remove their results vs. pre-screening OR NOT INVITING people who have no business responding to the survey.

Stan

]]> By: Nolton Johnson http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-283 Nolton Johnson Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:57:25 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-283 Mike, Does "ID users" mean Industrial Designers? I have a respect for that talent because I once thought I could do both conceptual machine design and the finished commercial package. My boss at that time (1969), went outside and had an ID guy do it and I was very impressed with the end result. The product was a success and it looked better than mine. So I did the concept and mechanism execution and he put a nice exterior on it. I watched some videos of sketching in Alias Design and that looks real interesting. I still sketch on paper. Maybe I should drop out of this discussion because my interest is simply thinking of a solution to a problem that involves nuts, bolts & metal then creating the document to build it from with a solid model and drawings on the Mac platform. When I found this discussion I felt like Jeff was letting people wimp out when he said "It is impractical to expect the people doing that kind of work to become skilled at a CAD tool meant for full-blown, detailed design and drafting." I guess I don't know how I could put a person in charge of creating a product if they don't know the mechanics and use the CAD tools. Maybe I have been away from the large enterprise too long to remember spreading the chores around to a large group of people with diverse talents and abilities. Auto body designers probably need no mechanical experience. Ian's ship building business creates a real workload for all areas of design and computing. That must be hard to manage. Nolton Mike,

Does “ID users” mean Industrial Designers? I have a respect for that talent because I once thought I could do both conceptual machine design and the finished commercial package. My boss at that time (1969), went outside and had an ID guy do it and I was very impressed with the end result. The product was a success and it looked better than mine. So I did the concept and mechanism execution and he put a nice exterior on it.

I watched some videos of sketching in Alias Design and that looks real interesting. I still sketch on paper.

Maybe I should drop out of this discussion because my interest is simply thinking of a solution to a problem that involves nuts, bolts & metal then creating the document to build it from with a solid model and drawings on the Mac platform.

When I found this discussion I felt like Jeff was letting people wimp out when he said “It is impractical to expect the people doing that kind of work to become skilled at a CAD tool meant for full-blown, detailed design and drafting.”

I guess I don’t know how I could put a person in charge of creating a product if they don’t know the mechanics and use the CAD tools. Maybe I have been away from the large enterprise too long to remember spreading the chores around to a large group of people with diverse talents and abilities. Auto body designers probably need no mechanical experience.

Ian’s ship building business creates a real workload for all areas of design and computing. That must be hard to manage.

Nolton

]]> By: Nolton Johnson http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-292 Nolton Johnson Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:57:00 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-292 Mike, Does "ID users" mean Industrial Designers? I have a respect for that talent because I once thought I could do both conceptual machine design and the finished commercial package. My boss at that time (1969), went outside and had an ID guy do it and I was very impressed with the end result. The product was a success and it looked better than mine. So I did the concept and mechanism execution and he put a nice exterior on it. I watched some videos of sketching in Alias Design and that looks real interesting. I still sketch on paper. Maybe I should drop out of this discussion because my interest is simply thinking of a solution to a problem that involves nuts, bolts & metal then creating the document to build it from with a solid model and drawings on the Mac platform. When I found this discussion I felt like Jeff was letting people wimp out when he said "It is impractical to expect the people doing that kind of work to become skilled at a CAD tool meant for full-blown, detailed design and drafting." I guess I don't know how I could put a person in charge of creating a product if they don't know the mechanics and use the CAD tools. Maybe I have been away from the large enterprise too long to remember spreading the chores around to a large group of people with diverse talents and abilities. Auto body designers probably need no mechanical experience. Ian's ship building business creates a real workload for all areas of design and computing. That must be hard to manage. Nolton Mike,

Does “ID users” mean Industrial Designers? I have a respect for that talent because I once thought I could do both conceptual machine design and the finished commercial package. My boss at that time (1969), went outside and had an ID guy do it and I was very impressed with the end result. The product was a success and it looked better than mine. So I did the concept and mechanism execution and he put a nice exterior on it.

I watched some videos of sketching in Alias Design and that looks real interesting. I still sketch on paper.

Maybe I should drop out of this discussion because my interest is simply thinking of a solution to a problem that involves nuts, bolts & metal then creating the document to build it from with a solid model and drawings on the Mac platform.

When I found this discussion I felt like Jeff was letting people wimp out when he said “It is impractical to expect the people doing that kind of work to become skilled at a CAD tool meant for full-blown, detailed design and drafting.”

I guess I don’t know how I could put a person in charge of creating a product if they don’t know the mechanics and use the CAD tools. Maybe I have been away from the large enterprise too long to remember spreading the chores around to a large group of people with diverse talents and abilities. Auto body designers probably need no mechanical experience.

Ian’s ship building business creates a real workload for all areas of design and computing. That must be hard to manage.

Nolton

]]> By: strobe http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-282 strobe Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:38:21 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-282 I have worked in shipbuilding for 40 years or so, starting with full scale lofting then developing computer approaches. I suspect that these reports read more logically when considering complex products like these. In our case there is the paper based concept development of the ship supported by analysis packages. The output of this phase may or may not be CAD based. When CAD it is often 2D. When the decision is made to build then the design of the component parts are developed using CAD. This is often in 3D with output to workshops in 2D. These 3D parts are then used within a 3D computer Mock Up. The file size and structure of this Mock up is complex. In principle, these component CAD parts could be reused elsewhere. However, there is no direct (computer)link to the original ship concept model (and the file size tends to preclude the showing of the whole ship) Thus the ship concept configuration is developed in one system whilst its build configuration is defined in another. I tend to think of the ship being designed and the build being specified. I believe that the next development is to 'structure' and manage the concept development in order to support the build phase I don't know if I am coming across right. I think everyone is correct but looking at the issue from individual directions. ian I have worked in shipbuilding for 40 years or so, starting with full scale lofting then developing computer approaches.
I suspect that these reports read more logically when considering complex products like these.

In our case there is the paper based concept development of the ship supported by analysis packages. The output of this phase may or may not be CAD based. When CAD it is often 2D.

When the decision is made to build then the design of the component parts are developed using CAD. This is often in 3D with output to workshops in 2D.

These 3D parts are then used within a 3D computer Mock Up. The file size and structure of this Mock up is complex. In principle, these component CAD parts could be reused elsewhere.
However, there is no direct (computer)link to the original ship concept model (and the file size tends to preclude the showing of the whole ship)

Thus the ship concept configuration is developed in one system whilst its build configuration is defined in another.

I tend to think of the ship being designed and the build being specified. I believe that the next development is to ‘structure’ and manage the concept development in order to support the build phase

I don’t know if I am coming across right. I think everyone is correct but looking at the issue from individual directions.
ian

]]> By: strobe http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-291 strobe Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:38:00 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-291 I have worked in shipbuilding for 40 years or so, starting with full scale lofting then developing computer approaches. I suspect that these reports read more logically when considering complex products like these. In our case there is the paper based concept development of the ship supported by analysis packages. The output of this phase may or may not be CAD based. When CAD it is often 2D. When the decision is made to build then the design of the component parts are developed using CAD. This is often in 3D with output to workshops in 2D. These 3D parts are then used within a 3D computer Mock Up. The file size and structure of this Mock up is complex. In principle, these component CAD parts could be reused elsewhere. However, there is no direct (computer)link to the original ship concept model (and the file size tends to preclude the showing of the whole ship) Thus the ship concept configuration is developed in one system whilst its build configuration is defined in another. I tend to think of the ship being designed and the build being specified. I believe that the next development is to 'structure' and manage the concept development in order to support the build phase I don't know if I am coming across right. I think everyone is correct but looking at the issue from individual directions. ian I have worked in shipbuilding for 40 years or so, starting with full scale lofting then developing computer approaches.
I suspect that these reports read more logically when considering complex products like these.

In our case there is the paper based concept development of the ship supported by analysis packages. The output of this phase may or may not be CAD based. When CAD it is often 2D.

When the decision is made to build then the design of the component parts are developed using CAD. This is often in 3D with output to workshops in 2D.

These 3D parts are then used within a 3D computer Mock Up. The file size and structure of this Mock up is complex. In principle, these component CAD parts could be reused elsewhere.
However, there is no direct (computer)link to the original ship concept model (and the file size tends to preclude the showing of the whole ship)

Thus the ship concept configuration is developed in one system whilst its build configuration is defined in another.

I tend to think of the ship being designed and the build being specified. I believe that the next development is to ‘structure’ and manage the concept development in order to support the build phase

I don’t know if I am coming across right. I think everyone is correct but looking at the issue from individual directions.
ian

]]> By: Jeff Waters http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-281 Jeff Waters Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:55:28 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-281 Thanks Mike. Exactly. Asking conceptual people to manage a complex history tree (ie, traditional CAD) is often crazy. One point: I think "sketching" to you means something very different than "sketching" to a CAD person. Just clarifying terminology for everyone. ID sketching is more like sketching in the sense of an artist with a pencil. Sketching in CAD is drawing a profile in 2D. Thanks Mike. Exactly. Asking conceptual people to manage a complex history tree (ie, traditional CAD) is often crazy. One point: I think “sketching” to you means something very different than “sketching” to a CAD person. Just clarifying terminology for everyone. ID sketching is more like sketching in the sense of an artist with a pencil. Sketching in CAD is drawing a profile in 2D.

]]> By: Jeff Waters http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-290 Jeff Waters Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:55:00 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-290 Thanks Mike. Exactly. Asking conceptual people to manage a complex history tree (ie, traditional CAD) is often crazy. One point: I think "sketching" to you means something very different than "sketching" to a CAD person. Just clarifying terminology for everyone. ID sketching is more like sketching in the sense of an artist with a pencil. Sketching in CAD is drawing a profile in 2D. Thanks Mike. Exactly. Asking conceptual people to manage a complex history tree (ie, traditional CAD) is often crazy. One point: I think “sketching” to you means something very different than “sketching” to a CAD person. Just clarifying terminology for everyone. ID sketching is more like sketching in the sense of an artist with a pencil. Sketching in CAD is drawing a profile in 2D.

]]> By: Mike Norgrave http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-280 Mike Norgrave Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:47:07 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-280 I have worked in an ID department for 15 years. To expect ID users to effectivly use Parametric applications Like Proe, Solidworks, Inventor is crazy. These tools do not provide the freedom a designer needs to rapidly make models and try different forms. Most of our concepts start digitally using digital sketching applications. We use Alias Design to start the 2d sketch using digital pencils, markers, etc. We can then reuse those sketches and 2d curves to start building a 3d model for Rapid prototyping. The only application that allows us to explore 2d ideas and create 3d models without remodeling is Alias Design. We had Rhino, but it does not have a sketching application built in like Alias. We have Proe here, and we tried it in the ID group. It is just to restrictive and is not set up for an ID workflow. Solidworks is a little easier, but still has the underlying problems of features and relations that restrict freeform and unrestricted modeling. You should spend some time with these companies and have them present their vision for ID. You will quickly see that only Autodesk provides tools for the whole ID workflow, where the others focus on just 3d modeling. We probably create 100's of 2d digital sketches before we even consider building a 3d model. Mike I have worked in an ID department for 15 years.
To expect ID users to effectivly use Parametric applications Like Proe, Solidworks, Inventor is crazy.
These tools do not provide the freedom a designer needs to rapidly make models and try different forms.
Most of our concepts start digitally using digital sketching applications.
We use Alias Design to start the 2d sketch using digital pencils, markers, etc. We can then reuse those sketches and 2d curves to start building a 3d model for Rapid prototyping.
The only application that allows us to explore 2d ideas and create 3d models without remodeling is Alias Design.
We had Rhino, but it does not have a sketching application built in like Alias.
We have Proe here, and we tried it in the ID group. It is just to restrictive and is not set up for an ID workflow. Solidworks is a little easier, but still has the underlying problems of features and relations that restrict freeform and unrestricted modeling. You should spend some time with these companies and have them present their vision for ID. You will quickly see that only Autodesk provides tools for the whole ID workflow, where the others focus on just 3d modeling. We probably create 100′s of 2d digital sketches before we even consider building a 3d model.

Mike

]]> By: Mike Norgrave http://lifeupfront.com/2009/10/15/aberdeen-conceptual-modeling/#comment-289 Mike Norgrave Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:47:00 +0000 http://lifeupfront.com/?p=682#comment-289 I have worked in an ID department for 15 years. To expect ID users to effectivly use Parametric applications Like Proe, Solidworks, Inventor is crazy. These tools do not provide the freedom a designer needs to rapidly make models and try different forms. Most of our concepts start digitally using digital sketching applications. We use Alias Design to start the 2d sketch using digital pencils, markers, etc. We can then reuse those sketches and 2d curves to start building a 3d model for Rapid prototyping. The only application that allows us to explore 2d ideas and create 3d models without remodeling is Alias Design. We had Rhino, but it does not have a sketching application built in like Alias. We have Proe here, and we tried it in the ID group. It is just to restrictive and is not set up for an ID workflow. Solidworks is a little easier, but still has the underlying problems of features and relations that restrict freeform and unrestricted modeling. You should spend some time with these companies and have them present their vision for ID. You will quickly see that only Autodesk provides tools for the whole ID workflow, where the others focus on just 3d modeling. We probably create 100's of 2d digital sketches before we even consider building a 3d model. Mike I have worked in an ID department for 15 years.
To expect ID users to effectivly use Parametric applications Like Proe, Solidworks, Inventor is crazy.
These tools do not provide the freedom a designer needs to rapidly make models and try different forms.
Most of our concepts start digitally using digital sketching applications.
We use Alias Design to start the 2d sketch using digital pencils, markers, etc. We can then reuse those sketches and 2d curves to start building a 3d model for Rapid prototyping.
The only application that allows us to explore 2d ideas and create 3d models without remodeling is Alias Design.
We had Rhino, but it does not have a sketching application built in like Alias.
We have Proe here, and we tried it in the ID group. It is just to restrictive and is not set up for an ID workflow. Solidworks is a little easier, but still has the underlying problems of features and relations that restrict freeform and unrestricted modeling. You should spend some time with these companies and have them present their vision for ID. You will quickly see that only Autodesk provides tools for the whole ID workflow, where the others focus on just 3d modeling. We probably create 100′s of 2d digital sketches before we even consider building a 3d model.

Mike

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